Curse

arredondo · Jul 04, 2005, 12:43 AM // 00:43

You buy HL2. You choose from the start PvE or PvP. In PvE you earn your weapons slowly. In PvP, it's all open from the start for balanced competitive play.

You buy GW. You choose from the start PvE or PvP. In PvE you earn your weapons/gear slowly. In PvP, it's hundreds of hours away from all being open for balanced competitive play. Can You PvE and ignore PvP play mechanics? YES! Can you PvP and ignore PvE play mechanics? NO!

JoDiamonds · Jul 04, 2005, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

Just what uber magical items you envision that exist in this game that unbalance a PVP match so badly that you get owned and can't understand why?

Just what uber ltem exists in the game that makes a spike group killers? What about that FOTM Ranger spirit spam build? What about those wacky Koreans, and their poison/life drain/hex you until you're a puddle of jelly build? Or a monk smiter group? Seed ball group?

Answer: Nothing. You got owned by a creative guild who has developed tactics using simple skills and professions. That "Godly" Chaos Axe (please read that with the sarcasm I intended) didn't beat you. Lightning spike, Lightning Orb, and Chain Lightning aren't even elite skills. You can buy (fairly cheaply, i might add) ANY rune you wish except for those few Superior runes everone craves, but in the end, they won't defeat a team that works well together with a creative use of skills and strategy.

Watch what other teams are doing during a match, and you'll see that spellbreaker, life bond, healing seed, strip enchantments, lightning strike, and teamspeak beat you, not a max dmg flaming doohickee of godliness.

Please stop being so incredibly presumptious and condescending.

Many teams obviously have plenty of out-of-game skills that lead them to win. That doesn't change the fact that the game isn't fair within the limits of the game.

Most of my PvP experiences are not from the Tomb of Primeval Kings, so every presumption you have about how much I've lost is pretty pointless. Now you can go ahead and say that I don't know what I'm talking about because I'm not an expert Tomb's player. But that's irrelevant.

There is no fair venue for PvP within the game. Maybe it's mostly fair, but there's no reason we should keep fair PvP out of Guild Wars. I'm not lobbying to remove the (unfair) PvP that exists, I just want a new venue that is fair.

I don't think people are even against my idea. I think many people are against "Unlock Everything", which they decide is what I'm lobbying for after skimming what I write.

Fair PvP is not the same thing as unlocking everything in PvP.

JoDiamonds · Jul 04, 2005, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

Where did you guys concoct this "600 hour" number from anyway? I can ascend a character through normal play in only a couple of days, and finsih the game through casual play in a week. There are players that are rushed to Droknar's Forge within a couple of hours of play, simply to unlock the elites, and to get the uber armor.

You aren't seriously suggesting that getting rushed to Droknar's is a fix for any issues, are you? Also, good for you that you are uber and elite and can finish the game so quick. But what about first time players? What about casual players less skilled than you? They aren't less deserving of having fun. =)

Quote:

While I do play PVP with my guild, I don't spend a lot of time doing it. I've managed to get about 400 faction points though light PVP play since the patch, I'm sure that more dedicated PVP players have thousands of faction points to unlock items/skills/runes/whatever.

Out of curiousity, how many hours do you play each week?

I'm just curious how many hours it took you to get 400 faction. I'm only up to 200.

Quote:

The new faction point system isn't too hard, points are easy to get even if you spend even a small part of your time PVP - if you choose to. People are just complaining for the sake of complaining - perhaps in their mind their gripes are justified, but reality is quite different. People use extremes to illustrate their points, when in truth, it's not nearly as bad as either side makes it out to be.

Whether or not something is "justified" is an opinion. Reality isn't a part of that. =)

And yes, it's not nearly as bad as you make it out to be. Whatever you are talking about. ;-)

Loviatar · Jul 04, 2005, 12:57 AM // 00:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoDiamonds

Fair PvP is not the same thing as unlocking everything in PvP.

that is interesting.

please tell me what and how much at what rate you would consider fair.

as a separate question how popular do you think an unlock everything arena would be if there was no
ranking
reward
or record of the match

simply play for the fun of it wide open

Tuna · Jul 04, 2005, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

as a separate question how popular do you think an unlock everything arena would be if there was no
ranking
reward
or record of the match

simply play for the fun of it wide open

An arena wouldn't be popular, however a tombs counterpart would be interesting

PieXags · Jul 04, 2005, 02:43 AM // 02:43

Arredondo don't even try to compare GW to Half-Life 2. The two games are nothing alike. Do you have to grow levels in "PvE" mode in HL2? Do you have to buy any weapons? Do you have to buy any new armor? Do you have to find crafting materials to craft other materials to craft "armor"?

The two games are nothing alike so quit using that horrible comparison. And you never answered or even responded to my comments.

Quit saying "PvE" mechanics, it is not "fact" that unlocking is a "PvE" mechanic, it is YOUR opinion, and nothing more. If it's in PvP, it's obviously also a PvP mechanic. Now put away your irrelivent comparisons to other games, and start throwing out some valid points for your argument.

JMadisonIV · Jul 04, 2005, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ages

While I would like UAS I Dont think it would be right, Not that im a PvE Fan but nothing is more Frustrating than someone getting what you earned in 500 Hours in 1second. I Would just much rather have a Full alternative way to unlock in PvP without the need for PvE, Not a button that is an Insult to the work PvE Players have spent time into.

my "non-point".

made by someone who apparently knows what they are talking about...and an apparent PvPer no less.

go figure.

Envy · Jul 04, 2005, 02:51 AM // 02:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

You guys know why PvP-focused players are ticked off at this kind of system? It's because the mindset of "fun" for them is completely different from the PvE-focused players. PvE players see the gaining of things as a goal to be fought hard towards, but PvP players think the real goal is outwitting your opponent using the tools available to all. Arena.net insists on putting an elaborate PvE system in PvP where it doesn't fit.

Hundreds (and I mean HUNDREDS) of gameplay hours just to get the same tools as the grinding experts out there is no fun in the long run. Fun for PvP-focused players begins when they can actually begin fully implementing 100% of their strats, builds and ideas.

These weekly bandaids to not having UAS and UAR only stretch out an endured and unwanted process. It will never solve the problem, and is disappointing to see PvP players with waning interest post their concerns because they simply want to play PvP the same way as all other serious PvP activities and games. Guild Wars' PvP system is the only one that makes you significantly grind before being able to equally match up with your teammates and opponents for battle.

Guild Wars' PvP players, like any other competitive title or sport, want to gather their fully armed friends together to battle OTHER fully armed opponents... outwitting and outplaying them into submission. Hours played doesn't matter, remmber? That is our source of fun, and plodding through some hyperextended unlocking system adds boredom and disinterest to a facet of the game that doesn't need it.

You don't ask chess players to "earn" their access to a Bishop. You don't expect a 3-man basketball team to make 1,000 outside shots just to have permission to bring on players 4 and 5. You don't ask players of the mega-successful Counterstrike to get 500 headshots before you award them a Desert Eagle pistol. If Arena.net wants people to flock to and support their excellent PvP engine, why make a pyramid scheme that only awards hours played from the already-top guilds? Gaining items should not be an extended means to an end when it comes to PvP. That's what PvE is for by rewarding time played with tangibles. We just want to play unhindered.

It's not a matter of PvE or PvP being better or worse than the other. It's just that they have two vastly different needs. Let PvE players play to explore, unlock and buy - add content that expands on that. Let PvP players play to build, strategize and win - remove barriers that prevent that. You keep adding PvE play mechanics to PvP, and PvP players don't like it.

The less you mix up the core needs of these two areas (both of which I like on their own BTW), the less complaint threads these sites will be bombarded with. Get rid of attruibute refund points outside of battle. Allow full UAS and UAR. Then add any content and features you want to PvE.

This is one of the most intelligent posts I have read on a board in quite a while. I wont even bother to read all the stuff that follows. Arredondo, I hope you submitted that for feedback to A-net. I just wish it wasn't to late to bring back all the people that already said to hell with it.

Ok so I did read alot of the flames. Well 2 pages anyway of mostly people bumping their thread count I guess. Someone else stated the damn obvious which was the earlier beta version of this game was so much smoother. My fun comes from trying new builds and playing with RL friends which both have been smashed since release. I keep hoping this will change but with each patch I just see the lack of it. If this game wasn't free and paid for I wouldn't even bother to be here.

Tuna · Jul 04, 2005, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMadisonIV

my "non-point".

made by someone who apparently knows what they are talking about...and an apparent PvPer no less.

go figure.

You would probably find that most PvPers would be more than happy to settle for a fun and easy way to unlock instead of UAX. UAX is just used because there is not other current solution and it is easier to argue black vs white than the grey areas.

Siran Dunmorgan · Jul 04, 2005, 04:07 AM // 04:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

Arredondo don't even try to compare GW to Half-Life 2. The two games are nothing alike. Do you have to grow levels in "PvE" mode in HL2? Do you have to buy any weapons? Do you have to buy any new armor? Do you have to find crafting materials to craft other materials to craft "armor"?

The two games are nothing alike so quit using that horrible comparison. And you never answered or even responded to my comments.

Quit saying "PvE" mechanics, it is not "fact" that unlocking is a "PvE" mechanic, it is YOUR opinion, and nothing more. If it's in PvP, it's obviously also a PvP mechanic. Now put away your irrelivent comparisons to other games, and start throwing out some valid points for your argument.

Eh. Don't worry about it. He never responded to my question about when someone's actually playing Guild Wars, either. That said, his posts are getting more literate and more thought-out as time goes on. I'm impressed. He almost has me convinced: if I were actually in this solely for the Tribes- or CounterStrike-like experience, I would be convinced by now.

But I'm not. I'm still holding on to the hope that Guild Wars will be the first game that will enable actual wars, at least to the extent that successive victories translate to better resources available to the winning team in a series of matches against a specific opponent, i.e., that Guild A would in some actual sense be able to wage a campaign against Guild B.[1]

The model of automatically granting all available resources to both A and B every time they set up a battle flies in the face of this dream, which is why I am not in favor of a UAx button or anything like it.

—Siran Dunmorgan

[1] Ideally, Guild A would be able to take away resources originally belonging to B.

Imagine if there were only—for instance—a thousand Runes of Superior Vigor in the whole game, and teams that used them also risked losing them in battle.

Now, that would be Guild Wars, and to the Rift with sports.

But, again, I know that folks who see this as sports rather than wars aren't going to let this happen, more's the pity.

Colophon: You'll notice, incidentally, that this perspective has nothing to do with 'PvE'. I'm in this for a better PvP experience, one that takes into account more than a single battle.

Arrow Whisper · Jul 04, 2005, 04:20 AM // 04:20

Rather I agree with the original poster or not is irrelevant. That's a great post.

PieXags · Jul 04, 2005, 04:42 AM // 04:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siran Dunmorgan

Eh. Don't worry about it. He never responded to my question about when someone's actually playing Guild Wars, either. That said, his posts are getting more literate and more thought-out as time goes on. I'm impressed. He almost has me convinced: if I were actually in this solely for the Tribes- or CounterStrike-like experience, I would be convinced by now.

But I'm not. I'm still holding on to the hope that Guild Wars will be the first game that will enable actual wars, at least to the extent that successive victories translate to better resources available to the winning team in a series of matches against a specific opponent, i.e., that Guild A would in some actual sense be able to wage a campaign against Guild B.[1]

The model of automatically granting all available resources to both A and B every time they set up a battle flies in the face of this dream, which is why I am not in favor of a UAx button or anything like it.

—Siran Dunmorgan

[1] Ideally, Guild A would be able to take away resources originally belonging to B.

Imagine if there were only—for instance—a thousand Runes of Superior Vigor in the whole game, and teams that used them also risked losing them in battle.

Now, that would be Guild Wars, and to the Rift with sports.

But, again, I know that folks who see this as sports rather than wars aren't going to let this happen, more's the pity.

Colophon: You'll notice, incidentally, that this perspective has nothing to do with 'PvE'. I'm in this for a better PvP experience, one that takes into account more than a single battle.

See I don't think you should be able to take things from people, but I do want to see wars. I want to have a giant enviornment, two teams, that can get up to like a hundred or two hundred or something in numbers, and say it's just a big enviornment, a slab of Tyria with towns and what not, but only the two "teams" or sides or whatever are there. And they wage war, day after day, night after night, no "blue team wins" or anything like that. Say I want to get together 40 people and raid the enemy's town, I want to then go do that.

If PvP weren't so linear, and so "countdown timer, so and so gained a morale boost, blue team wins!" sort of thing, faction, gear, skills, none of it would matter NEAR as much. It's the whole two small teams sitting there, waiting for a timer, they die, and then do it over again in a new "match".

I think people are so concerned about the skills because skills and using them in builds is about the only depth there is to the game. If we actually had WARS, with big giant battles, with MULTIPLE parties, everyone trying out their skill against another giant team in a massive fight---that would be cool. We can already have several teams of 8 in the tombs---why not actually have a giant war with greater numbers? You wouldn't even need a party to go in and do it, you could go in solo and it not matter because of how many parties there'd be, nobody would ever single you out knowing you're not in a party.

I think PvP just needs less emphasis on "winning" and more emphasis on just fun, PvP battles.

However, I don't think a UAX is the way to go about doing it. I personally would just like to see a big enviornment, fighting in towns, etc. That would be cool, less dependant on "gear" and more about fun.

I did submit a post in the sanitarium about it, but it died off after a page or two...

The Ages · Jul 04, 2005, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

See I don't think you should be able to take things from people, but I do want to see wars. I want to have a giant enviornment, two teams, that can get up to like a hundred or two hundred or something in numbers, and say it's just a big enviornment, a slab of Tyria with towns and what not, but only the two "teams" or sides or whatever are there. And they wage war, day after day, night after night, no "blue team wins" or anything like that. Say I want to get together 40 people and raid the enemy's town, I want to then go do that.

If PvP weren't so linear, and so "countdown timer, so and so gained a morale boost, blue team wins!" sort of thing, faction, gear, skills, none of it would matter NEAR as much. It's the whole two small teams sitting there, waiting for a timer, they die, and then do it over again in a new "match".

I think people are so concerned about the skills because skills and using them in builds is about the only depth there is to the game. If we actually had WARS, with big giant battles, with MULTIPLE parties, everyone trying out their skill against another giant team in a massive fight---that would be cool. We can already have several teams of 8 in the tombs---why not actually have a giant war with greater numbers? You wouldn't even need a party to go in and do it, you could go in solo and it not matter because of how many parties there'd be, nobody would ever single you out knowing you're not in a party.

I think PvP just needs less emphasis on "winning" and more emphasis on just fun, PvP battles.

However, I don't think a UAX is the way to go about doing it. I personally would just like to see a big enviornment, fighting in towns, etc. That would be cool, less dependant on "gear" and more about fun.

I did submit a post in the sanitarium about it, but it died off after a page or two...

Wrong game, Play WoW if you want a game where you zerg or be zerged and your items make the player.

Ristaron · Jul 04, 2005, 06:30 AM // 06:30

Every time I play a game like this and go onto forums related to it, I see threads like this.
Every time, they disgust me.
If you are not willing to spend the time earning the best skills, you don't deserve them.
If you do not have the time, then find a game where everyone is on equal footing. I suggest Rune, by Human Head Studios. If it is not so off-topic, I will say that that game starts everybody on the same footing, and you experiment yourself and learn new things.

And it brings me back on topic, because whatever game you play, you need to spend the time to learn certain things. You don't get zapped with all the knowledge you ever need, and everything to go with it. Like arredondo was chastized: "Shall we just hand you everything without you taking the time to learn what you should?"

Maybe you haven't considered that what you are suggesting means any n00b who just starts the game can get a good build somebody posted (thank you, everyone who gave their strategies to everyone - including the idiots who don't understand what to do aside from using the good skill combo), go into PvP, and be on the same footing as someone who's been playing for months.
It won't work in a game with this many players.
If you want something like that, go play Rune. That is where personal prowess matters, where your individual skill impresses and means something.
Do something like this in guild wars and PvP will slow to a gradual halt.

IMO total pvp in this game is pointless. There's no story, nothing to strive for - aside from keeping your guild ranking.

Tuna · Jul 04, 2005, 06:38 AM // 06:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ristaron

Do something like this in guild wars and PvP will slow to a gradual halt.

IMO total pvp in this game is pointless. There's no story, nothing to strive for - aside from keeping your guild ranking.

By that logic high end PvP should be dead within a week, however I highly doubt it will be.

PieXags · Jul 04, 2005, 07:55 AM // 07:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ages

Wrong game, Play WoW if you want a game where you zerg or be zerged and your items make the player.

Oh hush. It sucks in WoW and in most any other RPG that uses that style. Nobody likes gettin' ganked by the lvl 80 guys coming to kick ass and who don't get scratched by your lvl 50.

If guild wars implemented it it would be the only decent form of it out there, because everyone and their mom has a lvl 20 character, and there wouldn't be any "Calling high lvls to the city to protect us!" or any shit like that. It would actually be a fair fight, not highest level = wins.

And doing so would make it so that items DON'T make the player, as I...clearly said in my post. In a war with so many people there's no way in HELL you items can make you God. Which is why it would be so wonderful if we actually had wars in this game. I want guild wars, not guild skirmishes or practice fights.

Also I think it would encourage more players to actually play PvP, right now people just play it because PvE will eventually get boring and there's nowhere else to turn. Though the PvP in this game is, in my opinion, really really lacking when it comes to depth. I mean what's the motivation? Why PvP? Because there's nothing left to do in the game?

I just wish we had a form of PvP that actually meant something, instead of "Ok GG guys, that lasted 8 minutes instead of 3!" Or "this is our 5th consecutive battle, rock on!"

I don't know about you, but I'd be a hell of a lot more inclined to get more involved if I could stand over a city we just raided as I watch the enemy forces retreat out of their own town, knowing that in 10 minutes they'll be back with full force and we'll have to fight to defend what we just recently took control of.

Not "alright I've got THIS build so I can be 1337 now!" more like "I'm part of this army and I'll do my part" sort of thing.

*sigh* I can dream.

Quintus · Jul 04, 2005, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

that is interesting.

please tell me what and how much at what rate you would consider fair.

as a separate question how popular do you think an unlock everything arena would be if there was no
ranking
reward
or record of the match

simply play for the fun of it wide open

I would certainly use that arena, if only to test new builds.

Phades · Jul 04, 2005, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indigo

And what about the PvE players who want to PvP with their PvE characters, as is intended in this game? What about those guys? Why should they be on an unequal footing in PvP simply because they want to spend the time and "adventure and unlock"? Why should they pay for the PvP players need to shortcut?

Just my less than humble opinion.

I dunno, ive had some musings about the pve character and faction points myself. Ive grinded away 3k worth and unlocked some stuff, but i find it kinda pointless if i have to delete one of my characters to get the advantage of the unlocking process. Its even more pointless, if things superior vigor runes continue to be out of stock at the rune trader for instance, for the pve character to exist if i can unlock it via pvp method. I understand the logic behind some of the choices with the dual nature of this game, but the above is fairly odd. It just turns into grinding with a pve character in order to remake the same pvp characters over and over again, but in this instance grinding with a pvp character to remake it over and over again. With the rune trader, i thought the game was moving in a direction where more static gaines could be passed between pvp and pve, but it looks like i was wrong.

Also, i find it rather odd that the characters will move from the random arenas to the team arenas after a certain number of wins. Basically this means if a character hasnt ascended, for whatever reason, they could in theory get on a good team and get sent to the team arenas. Then they would most likely lose, but the character would be dropped off in droknar's forge, skipping a large portion of the game content. Granted the same character could get into a group and do the southern run, but id say that the likelyhood of getting into a random decent group for the arena is probably better than randomly getting into a good group to do the run to droknar's forge from beacon's perch. As it stands there are alot of ways to skip through the game's content, i dont really think that this is neccacary. I do think that the premis behind the matchup system is good, but the game should have logic to return the character to the point of origin instead. I also think that the matchup system could be advanced a step further, in the sense of the fame system, where people would begin pvp in the competition arenas, then earn the right to the team arenas, then finish by earning the right into the tombs competition, instead of allowing the pvp character to just choose to go wherever on creation. It is all pvp, but every aspect of the game could do with a bit more filtering and ranking in terms of player competence instead of percentage of game completed.

In removing the xp from the kills in the arena, has the dual effect of freezing the character in pvp. This also reinforces the idea that if the character wants to try something different, to just delete and remake instead of just re-using the same character. This is particularly crippling to a PvE character, that chooses to respecialize in order to pvp. Points should be frozen in mission areas and have unlimited spending in non-mission areas such as towns or competiion waiting areas.

Phades · Jul 04, 2005, 09:57 AM // 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

Oh hush. It sucks in WoW and in most any other RPG that uses that style. Nobody likes gettin' ganked by the lvl 80 guys coming to kick ass and who don't get scratched by your lvl 50.

If guild wars implemented it it would be the only decent form of it out there, because everyone and their mom has a lvl 20 character, and there wouldn't be any "Calling high lvls to the city to protect us!" or any shit like that. It would actually be a fair fight, not highest level = wins.

And doing so would make it so that items DON'T make the player, as I...clearly said in my post. In a war with so many people there's no way in HELL you items can make you God. Which is why it would be so wonderful if we actually had wars in this game. I want guild wars, not guild skirmishes or practice fights.

Also I think it would encourage more players to actually play PvP, right now people just play it because PvE will eventually get boring and there's nowhere else to turn. Though the PvP in this game is, in my opinion, really really lacking when it comes to depth. I mean what's the motivation? Why PvP? Because there's nothing left to do in the game?

I just wish we had a form of PvP that actually meant something, instead of "Ok GG guys, that lasted 8 minutes instead of 3!" Or "this is our 5th consecutive battle, rock on!"

I don't know about you, but I'd be a hell of a lot more inclined to get more involved if I could stand over a city we just raided as I watch the enemy forces retreat out of their own town, knowing that in 10 minutes they'll be back with full force and we'll have to fight to defend what we just recently took control of.

Not "alright I've got THIS build so I can be 1337 now!" more like "I'm part of this army and I'll do my part" sort of thing.

*sigh* I can dream.

Play planetside. Even in the ideal playground that planetside resembles for you, there are many pitfalls and holes in the gameplay style. Many of the problems do fall to equipment, while some of them fall to scale and server issues and an overarching lack of structure. Guildwars has some structure to the pvp, but it needs alot more before it can be truly unique.

PieXags · Jul 04, 2005, 12:44 PM // 12:44

I know what you mean, I did play planetside for a while but I got tired of it. Seemed like a good idea that fell in the wrong place.

I know the idea's been done before in other games, but all those games had several major flaws that aren't present in Guild Wars. Which is why I'd love to see it.

I like the idea Loviatar tossed out (to get more on topic)

Seems to me like that would please a fair amount of people.